kore_logs | Would you please forgive me? For while I cannot love myself, I'll use something else.

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Would you please forgive me? For while I cannot love myself, I'll use something else.

Who: Castiel and OPEN
Where: Near the bar
When: day 47
What: Gettin' drunk, bein' pissy
Warnings: Other than drinking, probably none, but it may depend on the thread.

Castiel had been worried enough about Lucifer and then Crowley when he'd only had Meg to worry about. Now that Dean was back, he was even more concerned. Dean could hold his own against a lot of powerful creatures, but Lucifer was a whole new level and Crowley wasn't exactly easy to pick off. They needed to plan some sort of defensive strategy.

He'd gone looking for Dean in the obvious location. Before, Dean had spent a good deal of his time in the bar and so Castiel had gone there to find him. Finding the bar empty, he had gone for what he recognized to be one of Dean's favored drinks. Surely, he only had to wait and Dean would show up eventually. It was easier than running all over the town where Crowley might spot him. There were easier ways to locate Dean, but maybe Castiel wanted to nurse a little self-pity. Balthazar and Sam were still missing and Dean was... well, he was better, but he was different and he didn't remember. What if they kept making him forget?

Several hours later, he found himself leaving the bar alone. He wasn't as drunk as he'd been in the past, but he would be lying if he said he wasn't feeling it.

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Well, this is off to a good, if awkward start, given the fact that they've both killed each other. Castiel doesn't want to push his luck, but maybe Raphael doesn't remember everything.

"There seems to be a time discrepancy here." He can only hope that it's working in his favor. "Do you mind if I ask what you last remember?"

"Admiration of courage aside, it's not your place to ask me anything." His voice was cool, with just a slight warning in it. "Although given Gabriel and Anna are here, alive, and Lucifer isn't parading around in Sam Winchester, yes I'd say there is more than one time discrepancy." That was as much as he was willing to give at this moment. Instead he watched, waiting for Castiel to make a move or react.

Castiel didn't flinch, at least not outwardly. That did narrow it down quite a bit. "I suspect I'm from a few years later than you are."

If he didn't remember anything about the souls from Purgatory or Castiel killing him, that really was a large point in Castiel's favor. The only person here who might tell him was Crowley and he would just have to hope that Crowley wouldn't think of it.

He takes a slow, deep breath. "What is my place, then?"

"I have heard something to that effect." Gabriel had given him a basic layout of when the others were form, but he wouldn't tell Castiel where he received the information. Let him wonder.

"Likely no where you would enjoy." He offered Castiel his place in the Host, an offer made out of mercy and love for his brothers, and Castiel had rejected it. As far as Raphael was concerned, Castiel was out of second chances or merciful endings.

"Then you'll have to forgive me if I stay where I am." Castiel won't be anyone's blindly loyal soldier again. He'd prefer death to that. It's not out of a lack of love for the others, but the fact that he'd already been ordered to do things that were wrong. His own mistakes carry more guilt, but they're his to make.

"There's no reason we can't coexist here, brother." The word is almost foreign on his tongue. There had been a time he could have easily and honestly said that he loved Raphael as he loved all of the Host, but that time had passed. He couldn't forgive or forget everything that had passed between them.

"I don't have to do anything, least of all forgive you of your various betrayals." Raphael didn't have an entirely of the Host blindly following orders - Zachariah had known the truth for some time, Joshua had as well. Raphael knew, too well, the burden of decisions, compounded by the weight of the Host and the Earth with all it's life resting on his and Michael's shoulders.

"Once there was no reason we couldn't coexist anywhere, brother." His pitch drops just a little on the last word. 'Brother' is as much a title as a term of endearment, even still, and it's offered as a reminder that Raphael hadn't attacked, though he had ample justification to.

Was still tempted to.

"Look at you. Drinking. Living in a house. You want to live as one of them, and yet you want to also be an angel. As least Anna picked a side."

"Why do there have to be sides?" It was out of his mouth before he could even think about it, voice sharp and clear. "I never wanted to leave or become a human. I wanted to build a better life for all of us. I never wanted angels to stop being angels. I just wanted them to understand that they could make their own decisions. We could have been happy. All of us."

He feels completely sober now. "He brought me back. Doesn't that mean something to you? Our Father didn't want the world to end."

"There are sides because you drew lines." His voice is equally sharp, though more heavy. His jaw tightened, his eyes flashed with anger. "You are dragging strife and fear into the Host and it won't stop at you and I - you are risking the entire Host for what?" But his hands didn't leave their place from behind his back. "A better life Castiel? Are you happy? Zachariah was, not that you granted him respect for the choices he made. Uriel you helped to kill. You only want the Host to make the choices you would - and if not, you fight."

And that, that was the wrong thing to say, entirely. "Yes it means something." It was the reason Raphael had been pushed over the edge he had. That leap he made, that was still ongoing. "I never thought I'd see the day God preferred a traitor to the most loyal." No matter what Castiel said, no matter what anyone said - God had betrayed Michael, and Raphael wasn't willing to forgive it.

Was Castiel happy? No. Castiel wasn't entirely sure that he'd ever been happy. He'd felt content at times, even comfortable, but he wondered if he was capable of happiness. Maybe soldiers just weren't meant to be happy and Castiel wasn't sure that he could ever really stop being a soldier.

"I don't deny that I've made mistakes, brother, but I don't think wanting my freedom is one of them. You wouldn't let me leave. What did you expect me to do? You said kneel or die and I found dying to be the preferable choice." He couldn't promise that the war wouldn't have happened, anyway, but he'd felt pushed into a corner and with no other options.

Raphael watched the Host - most, in general, had been happy. When they still believed themselves to be following the orders of a silent Father. The truth had caused discontent and difficulties.

"That would be a 'no' then yes? How frightening has this been for you Castiel? How lonely? You'd put that on the heads of those who would not want it, could not bare it. I've told you - angels aren't built for freedom, certainly not as you offer it." Anyone else might be hiss words out through gritted teeth, Raphael speaks perfectly clearly. "And you would - do - wage war on those who do not think as you do. What am I to do? Watch as another war rips the Host to pieces?"

"You're right about one thing; I don't think we are made for freedom." It was a hard thing to admit, but it was the truth. Even the angels that had fought on his side had simply chosen to follow his orders instead of Raphael's. Yes, there were exceptions, but they were just that.

"You could have let me leave in peace. You could have let the Apocalypse die. Those were your choices." For all his bad decisions, Castiel couldn't let the apocalypse happen. Nothing would change that.

"You're not our Father and you can't speak for Him any more than I can."

Castiel admitting he was wrong did sooth some of Raphael's ruffled feathers, did allow him to back down just a little. "Do you think if you were, Michael and I would have done what we did?" Managing the Host, unable to function without strong leaders in charge was exhausting. It had worn them both out - it simply was never a job for two. That's why there had been four.

"No, I couldn't let you leave. You know what we lost in command ranks." He hadn't been able to afford it. And Castiel, raised by God, would have greatly relieved some of the questioning in the Host. "And I can't - I won't leave Michael in the Cage. You pulled Sam Winchester from it - you've seen it. How could you?" He wasn't willing to leave Lucifer inside it either. He and Michael had been in agreement - if Lucifer couldn't be saved, he had to be killed. They wouldn't allow the torture to continue.

"I have been speaking for Him, Castiel." As he'd said - it was God's Will, because it was what he wanted.

Castiel couldn't allow the world to end--he wouldn't--not after what the Winchesters had gone through and not while the world was still their Father's beautiful creation. Humans were flawed, but no more flawed than angels. He didn't know why the other couldn't see that.

"No, you only pretend to be. You speak for yourself. You don't care what He wants any more than you care what I want." He shook his head. "I loved Michael once, too, but I can't stand back and let either of you destroy everything He left to us."

Raphael didn't understand how Castiel could rank the Winchesters as being that important - they were nothing, no one, two humans with very short lives against everything else. It made no sense to him, to use them as the value of measure when there was so much else wrong.

"I pretend nothing. God's Will is Heaven's will, and as I'm the one left in charge..." And that might change, but only at his death. "You'd let all of humanity suffer, and why? Because it's what a few want?" God abandoned and betrayed them - He no longer had a say.

The Winchesters were friends and that had become everything to Castiel, even moreso after he'd betrayed them and started to understand where his own choices had been wrong.

"Humanity isn't suffering, Raphael. It's surviving." The bad survived just as much as the good, but the good still counted. It still mattered. "What makes us any more worthy than they are?"

Raphael flat out stared at Castiel. He could have suddenly sprouted greeting card fluffy wings, the look would have been about the same.

"Surviving, Castiel? Millions starve to death each day, die from lack of drinking water, from illness - nothing which they couldn't manage, if they tried, if hunters hadn't wiped out so many of the species which prey on them. Instead they wage war on each other for population control. How many have there been in the last century alone? And it's only going to get worse. Dean broke the first Seal, Castiel - look what even the righteous are willing to do. They are suffering, they are in pain. Leaving them to flounder? It's cruelty."

"I don't leave them to flounder. I've been traveling. I've been helping people... healing them and fixing things. There are bad people out there, but there are good people, too." He wasn't sure why he was even trying. Raphael refused to see what Castiel saw in their Father's creations.

Yes, Dean had broken the first seal and Castiel had done far worse than that, but he couldn't believe that atonement was impossible. Dean had forgiven him and surely his Father, in all of His infinite love and mercy could forgive them, that is if He even cared at all.

"I'm working to make amends for my mistakes. I can only hope that you don't think I'm the only one who has made them." He didn't mean just Raphael, either. Who among them hadn't made mistakes?

"Heaven if full of good people Castiel. I well know they exist. My point is that they are suffering - and there is nothing you will ever be able to do to stop that." Raphael sounded almost as sorrowful as he was frustrated. Castiel wasn't hearing him, or Raphael suspected he simply didn't want to understand.

Good people where driven to do horrible things because they were alone and suffering - Raphael had wanted to to end that. He still did.

"How much work can you do Castiel? For every one you help - how many still cry out in pain or fear? Those that you save, does it ever even out the bloodshed you've caused?" It was harsh, yes, and would have been harsher had Raphael known the future - but he really isn't attempting to be cruel. Something that might also have changed if he knew the future. "Mistakes are something that lead to that kind of suffering."

He had made his mistakes - missteps - but the younger angels stumbled most. It was why he did what he did. Trying to protect them from minor and major falls.

No. No, Castiel could never make up for what he's done and he knew as much. He'd caused so much suffering and he wasn't good, but he didn't see things in the same absolute black and white that he once had. He wasn't bad, either. He was simply guilty of sins, like everyone else.

"We should still have the freedom to make those mistakes and learn from them." Despite his wrong choices, he wouldn't give up his seeming autonomy for anything. He couldn't do it, knowing what he knew and experiencing what he had. Nothing Raphael could say would change that. "Suffering is part of life. It's how we grow. I think He always intended that."

Raphael would never forgive Castiel for what he'd done - and those were simply for the things he knew. He was more likely to forgive Lucifer for being the one who ripped the archangels apart to begin with.

"You speak of freedom Castiel - but you know angels aren't built for it. You'd bring cruelty down on the heads of your siblings for no other reason that to see them fall and suffer as you have. Because you believe it's what you should do." Which made him no different than Lucifer - or Raphael and Michael.

Raphael's jaw ticked at the mention of their long absent Father. "He has a voice. If He refuses to speak, then those of us made to lead should - and we do."

"I know now that not all of them want it." He really did think that he understood what had gone wrong and where. "But why would you take freedom away from those who want it? I'm not the only one. You wouldn't let me leave."

He knew he couldn't blame everything on Raphael. He knew exactly what had been his fault and the guilt ate at him, but he wouldn't take all of the responsibility. He hadn't been the only one to make mistakes.

"I don't deny my mistakes. There is so much I regret that I would do differently, but leaving wasn't a mistake and I don't regret it." His actions, misguided as they'd been, had been actions of love when they had started.

Raphael actually blinked slowly at Castiel. "Most - the vast majority - don't. They are following you because God raised you. Because they think you have answers. They have no understanding of what free will is."

He didn't yet know Balthazar had run off - in his experience, those who had run off where cowards or had questioned too much, been crushed under the weight of doubt. "No, I wasn't going to let you leave. Heaven forbid I prefer my brothers in Heaven where they belong."

Raphael could point out everything that was wrong with Castiel leaving. "Leaving was a mistake Castiel." Instead he left it there.

"You're right." He paused. "About them, you are right. Most of them followed me for the wrong reasons and I let them because I thought winning was worth it, but it wasn't." Not that he knew where to even start on any sort of alternative. He'd been so desperate and he'd let that control him.

"I don't think you're right about me, though." He'd changed. So much had changed and he did belong in Heaven, but not a corrupt one. "Do you still think I belong there?"

"If you recall, I've explained that before, although you refused to listen." Raphael had known it would end badly - he had been trying to save his brothers, even if a few disagreed.

"If I didn't, you wouldn't still be alive." Or at least, would have died again. He wouldn't have offered Castiel a chance to return if he didn't believe his brother belonged there. "And no, I'm not."

Something in Castiel's face softened. He didn't think he belonged in Heaven--he didn't even deserve to be welcome there--but if Raphael thought he did, well, that could mean something.

"I don't want to fight anymore." He was so tired of fighting. He'd given up in Purgatory and being here had reignited something in him. There were people here worth fighting for and he would if he had to, but he didn't want to.

Here, there was no apocalypse to prevent, no world to save. It was pointless and he couldn't.

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